VOA – CONNECT
EPISODE  127  
AIR DATE  06 19 2020   
TRANSCRIPT


OPEN  ((VO/NAT)) 
((Banner)) 
Talking About Guns 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
There's this really simplistic way of thinking about guns 
often, which is people are anti-gun or they're pro-gun.  
We like to imagine that this is a simple phenomenon in the 
culture that you own a gun.  And so, you have all of these 
different attitudes and you must have these different ideas.  
And that just isn't true. 
((Animation Transition)) 
((Banner))
Practicing Nonviolence 
((Robert A.F. Thurman, Professor Emeritus, Columbia 
University))   
We learn to develop patience by restraining our reactivity in 
anger.  So, if we learned to do that internally, then we can 
learn not to respond to violence.   
((Animation Transition)) 
((Banner)) 
Dancing Alone Together
((Diane Coburn Burning, Chamber Dance Project))  
So, we’re settling for the screen and now we’re trying to, you 
know, blow up that screen with energy and excitement. 
((Open Animation))  
 

BLOCK A 
((Animated Banner with Music:  
Americans and Guns 
Differing Perspectives)) 

 
((PKG))  GUN CARRYING PROFESSOR   
((Banner:  Finding Common Ground))  
((Reporter/Camera:  Deepak Dobhal))
((Map:  Ashland, Wisconsin))   
((Main character: 1 female))  
((Sub characters:  2 females;  2 males))  
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
My views on guns are complicated.  I recognize how 
powerful and potentially destructive they are.  I've had family 
members killed, self-inflicted, by suicide. 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
But I also am a gun owner.  We own five or six guns, mostly 
rifles, shotgun hunting rifles, but we also have a handgun in 
our gun safe.  On the other hand, I know the research on 
gun ownership.  The likelihood of victimization is first and 
foremost rooted in the home.  You're much more likely to 
harm yourself or others with a gun than you are to ever use 
one in self-defense. 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
We are going to the gun range in town.  And this is the place 
where a couple years ago I was on the trap team.   
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
I met someone in town who shoots guns.  Sent him a 
message to see if he was free and he is.  So, he's meeting 
us there. 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud & Man)) 
I can't actually arm at work, so. 
Oh, did you come from work? 
Yeah.  I was up this morning. 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
There's this really simplistic way of thinking about guns 
often, which is people are anti-gun or they're pro-gun.  
We like to imagine that this is a simple phenomenon in the 
culture that you own a gun.  And so, you have all of these 
different attitudes and you must have these different ideas.  
And that just isn't true. 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
Well, I'm always fast though.  That's pretty quick. 
((NATS)) 
((Man)) 
I'm used to firearms.  I've been relatively well trained with 
them and I've been shooting them all my life.  I carry a 
concealed weapon permit for both Wisconsin and 
Minnesota. 
((NATS)) 
((Man)) 
I have no issues with whatever the majority of people want to 
regulate as long as they don't want to say, I don't have a 
right to.  If they say, you have a right to, but you have to do 
this, yeah, okay, sure, no problem.  Guns are as dangerous 
as cars.  I would be fine with regulating them like a car.  You 
have a license, you have training, you have to pass a test 
and you have to recertify.  I personally don't have an issue. 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
That's what I agree with.  I mean, you know, when I said that 
my views on guns are complicated.  I think they need to be 
harder to get a hold of.  I mean, our issue with gun violence 
is that guns are so easy for anyone to get a hold of.  And the 
people who I feel totally comfortable owning guns and 
carrying them or whatever, go for it.  Good.  I want it.  I want 
to know you're carrying, you know.  But not Joe Schmo, who 
could just pick one up anywhere. 
((NATS)) 
((Man)) 
This is a DPMS model AR-10.  It currently has a 10-round 
magazine in it.  It is capable of 30 and 50-round magazines. 
((NATS)) 
((Man)) 
Safety off.  Shot.  No, I did hit it.   
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
The best part was shooting a shotgun.  I don't like AR-15s. 
Personally, I don't enjoy shooting them.  I'm not into long-
range tactical precision shooting.  I don't, it's not a hobby of 
mine.  And I also, you know, I have a lot of mixed feelings 
about even putting an AR-15 on video.  
For a lot of people who have experienced mass shootings, 
an AR is an emblem of everything that's wrong with gun 
culture.  And I totally understand that.  We live in different 
realities, you know.  If you've been affected by gun violence, 
your reality about what guns are is one thing.  And if you've 
never been affected, you can kind of blithely go on with your 
life never really confronting that. 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
Prior to 2008, when I started researching guns, I never really 
thought about my vulnerability.  I never thought of myself as 
someone who needed to carry a gun in self-defense.  But as 
I started interviewing people and reading books from the 
concealed carry worldview and watching media on these 
ideas, I started to develop a fear of crime that I'd never had 
before.  And so, there were times during this research, when 
I would wake up in the middle of the night with my heart 
racing, thinking I had heard something.  And because I didn't 
have a gun available, I thought there's nothing I can do.  I'm 
completely vulnerable and so are my kids and what am I 
doing? 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
I can easily identify with people who say that there is a risk 
that there could be danger and so, carrying a gun makes 
sense.  I understand that worldview now in a way that I 
never did before.  I still think though, with my familiarity with 
the research, that the risk is greater that a gun will be used 
to harm even the gun-owner than it will ever be used in self-
defense.  I have these conflicting views in myself.  I would 
like not to have to carry a gun in public and I want to do 
whatever I can to help transform society, transform our 
politics, so that doesn't feel like an inevitability. 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
Thank you all for coming.  I really agree with the sentiments 
that were expressed about the importance of talking about 
issues like this at the community level.  Getting offline, off 
social media and having face-to-face conversations is one of 
the healthiest things we can do.  So tonight, we're going to 
talk about gun violence, a topic that is more pressing today 
than it was when I started my research. 
((NATS)) 
((Elizabeth Holland, Member, Up North Engaged)) 
We have to figure out a way to have a dialogue and having 
somebody like Angela, who is a scholar in this subject, but 
who is also herself is a gun owner, she is kind of a presence 
already somewhat in the middle so that both sides have trust 
and respect for her and that kind of helps to start the 
dialogue.  
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
Guns are unique in their ability to provoke intense emotions 
and very little productive conversation across different 
perspectives.  And this hit home for me.  My book had just 
come out.  And I was back home in Austin and I was at my 
sister house and my mom was there.  And they started this 
debate about concealed carry and they're like screaming at 
each other.  I'm standing there as someone who just wrote a 
book about this and not once did anyone say like, well, 
actually is anything we're saying true?  Do you know 
anything about this topic?  And of course, I'm a little sister 
and the daughter so, like, probably that had something to do 
with it.  But they weren't interested at all in the facts.  As 
soon as I started talking about the facts, they don't even 
want to have the conversation anymore.  
Who benefits when we won't even talk to each other about 
serious issues?  When we're afraid, when we're either afraid 
of gun owners and guns or that we're afraid that the 
government's going to take our guns.  Who benefits when 
we're afraid of crime?  And who is benefiting from this 
current political climate where we're losing the ability to talk 
to each other about difficult issues?  Are we benefiting?  The 
clear answer is no.  And that's something we all have in 
common.  
I want us to be on one team.  Right?  Like I'm thinking about 
this on the community level.  And for me, that's what 
democracy is supposed to be about, not get the NRA 
[National Rifle Association] involved in our conversation so 
we can't even talk or any other lobby organization.  I mean, 
I'm picking on them because of this topic.  But the Gifford’s 
gun lobby groups have been as problematic.  Bloomberg’s 
groups are not helpful.  We need to do this work to a great 
extent. 
((Vox Pop)) 
Why don't we confiscate cars from crazy people?  Why do 
we only confiscate guns from crazy people? 
Got to be some regulation, stop somewhere. 
I own an AR 15.  I won't get into why, other than 38 years in 
the army.  It's what I'm familiar with.  It's not at home loaded 
right now. 
I have a huge fear of somebody has a weapon of mass 
destruction. 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
When you focus just on the political level or the gun lobby 
level, people are very entrenched in their positions.  They're 
either pro-gun adamantly or they are anti-gun adamantly and 
nuance gets completely lost.  But when you start to open the 
door for conversation and there's a sense of trust that I'm not 
here to take away your guns, I just want to talk about are 
there possibilities for reducing gun violence, then people 
start to reveal their complexity. 
((Vox Pop) 
And I'm not opposed to what you were talking about….. 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Northland College, Ashland, 
Wisconsin)) 
At the meeting, there was one man who described how he 
owns an AR-15 because that gun style came up in the 
discussion and he approached me after the meeting and we 
talked a bit.  And one of the things that came from that 
conversation was his willingness to admit that he has 
ambivalence about some of our gun policies. 
Guns take on a different meaning when you have to kind of 
recognize that they're not just one thing.  Gun ownership is 
about identity.  It's about emotions.  And that, in this 
complexity, we need to be willing to engage rationally so that 
we don't just stick with these very tiresome pro-gun, anti-gun 
views and instead, get to a better place. 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Professor, Northland College)) 
We could become much worse than we are today or we 
could become much better than we are today.  I mean, who 
would have imagined the 15 years ago, that kindergarteners 
would be learning active shooter drills by learning nursery 
rhymes about duck and cover from a shooter.  It's becoming 
so normal already. 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Northland College, Ashland, 
Wisconsin)) 
The worst thing that could happen is that we give up any 
hope at all that there's change that's possible and we just 
naturalize gun violence like we naturalize all kinds of 
violence. 
((NATS)) 
((Angela Stroud, Northland College, Ashland, 
Wisconsin)) 
So, the worst fear is that we just assume this is just who we 
are as people. 
((MUSIC/NATS)) 

ANIMATED PROMO  ((VO/NAT/SOT)) 
((Banner:  
Next time on 
Americans and Guns 
((SOT)) 
When I hear about these atrocities, when the mass 
shootings, you know, Parkland, Dayton, El Paso, and I hear 
the backlash from the media and from politicians, saying that 
if we had less guns, if people didn’t have guns, they wouldn’t 
be able to do things like this, I have to answer that the 
opposite is true.   
((Banner: 
Next time on 
Americans and Guns 
 
 
TEASE  ((VO/NAT)) 
Coming up….. 
((Banner)) 
A Buddhist View 
((Robert A.F. Thurman, Professor Emeritus, Columbia 
University))   
The actions we should take is free speech, use the speech 
freely.  And that's a great thing about our democracy. 
There's freedom of assembly.  There's freedom of speech.

BREAK ONE									 
BUMP IN  ((ANIM))				  


BLOCK B   
((Banner:  Faith))  
 

((PKG))  FAITH /  BUDDHISM   
((Banner:  Buddhism))  
((Reporter/Camera:  Aaron Fedor)) 
((Producer:  Kathleen McLaughlin)) 
((Map:  Woodstock, New York))    
((Main character:  1 male)) 
((NATS)) 
((Robert A.F. Thurman, Professor Emeritus, Columbia 
University))    
Buddhism is a way of educating yourself to actually find 
happiness and terminate suffering.  And it's 2,600 years old 
and it has all kinds of educational methodologies including 
meditation and scientific investigation of reality.  It’s based 
on the discovery of Buddha that reality enables human 
beings to become truly free of suffering.   
((Robert A.F. Thurman, Professor Emeritus, Columbia 
University))   
The Buddhist approach is best articulated in the world today 
by His Holiness, the Dalai Lama.  And that is, first of all, 
violence is out and war is out and conflict and disagreement 
is settled by dialogue. 
((Robert A.F. Thurman, Professor Emeritus, Columbia 
University))   
This is a graphic novel that I did with several friends.  It's 
about the Dalai Lama and this is a painting of the Dalai 
Lama and behind him, the seat of government in Tibet, the 
Potala.  And here in '71, I met him.  I was on a fellowship 
from Harvard and then he says, "Oh, here comes my monk.  
Oh, whoops.  What happened to his robes?"   
World leaders, who have used nonviolence, have been 
extraordinarily successful, although the way we are taught 
history because of the high level of militarization of our 
society, we kind of ignore those examples.  But Gandhi was 
a nonviolent leader.  Martin Luther King was a nonviolent 
leader, in modern period.  Many in ancient period.  Jesus, 
you know, was a nonviolent leader.  
((Robert A.F. Thurman, Professor Emeritus, Columbia 
University))   
So, the main way of learning to do nonviolence for the 
individual is to learn to control their own violent reactions, 
which doesn't mean become a doormat.  It just means learn 
to deal with injury directed toward them in a more practical 
way.  We learned to develop patience by restraining our 
reactivity in anger.  So, if we learn to do that internally, then 
we can learn not to respond to violence.  This is the kind of 
training, for example, in America today that the police need 
to be trained in.  How to respond when someone says, "Hey, 
pig," or something, not to then hammer them with a stick and 
break their head or kill them even. 
((NATS))
((Robert A.F. Thurman, Professor Emeritus, Columbia 
University))   
The best way to overcome anger, it's a long, hard job, I can 
say.  I had quite a hot temper, kind of still do, but, so it is, I 
know how hard it is.  But one of the things that helps you 
overcome it with experience is you notice that it always 
causes more trouble than it solves.  Because when I want to 
lose my temper, when I want to get all obsessed with 
something, I kind of say, "Well, I can do it next life.  Well, I 
don't want to really do something harmful because it'll come 
after me in the future.  There'll be no escaping of the 
consequences of that doing.”  And so, I want to become 
enlightened, to be really happy and to help others be happy. 
That's what I want and I'm going to do it and that has 
changed my life. 
((NATS))
((Robert A.F. Thurman, Professor Emeritus, Columbia 
University))    
The actions we should take is free speech, use speech 
freely.  And that's a great thing about our democracy. 
There's freedom of assembly.  There's freedom of speech.  
A policeman is supposed to be the servant of the people. 
The word for policemen in Sanskrit is Rajapurusha, meaning 
the king's man and a king is supposed to be serving the 
subjects, not dominating them.  This is, we know, there are 
different styles of kingship and a good theories of kingship 
like ancient Chinese one about the emperor, ancient Indian 
one, and actually somewhere in even the idea of a good 
Christian king, there's the idea not of divine right but an idea 
of the king's job is to work for them.  And the president is not 
the boss of everybody.  He's the servant of everybody.  
That's the whole point of being a ruler, is you are the 
servant.  "Heavy lies the head that wears the crown," said 
Henry IV in Shakespeare's play. 
((NATS))
((Robert A.F. Thurman, Professor Emeritus, Columbia 
University))   
That’s the Buddha's teaching, "What goes around, comes 
around."  That's what karma means.  And it's a biological 
teaching.  And so, Mother Nature is showing us how we 
must stop being violent against her and against each other 
and then we'll all be happy.  Buddhism wants everyone to be 
happy.  If you are violent and harm others or yourself or 
nature, you will not be happy. Therefore, be nonviolent. 
((NATS))
((Robert A.F. Thurman, Professor Emeritus, Columbia 
University))   
At this moment, when we are rising up in the United States 
of America about the violence committed against the Black 
people, it's very important that those who are rising up in 
protest remember that violence is what they are against.  
((Robert A.F. Thurman, Professor Emeritus, Columbia 
University))   
I'm extremely hopeful because in the overall view of history, 
nonviolence has always been more powerful than violence.  
It's very important not to lose hope and realize that it is your 
right as a human to be happy, have a good time, sing some 
songs and no one has a right to prevent you from doing that.  
And if you keep doing that, sooner or later, other people will 
join you in the choir.  And that happiness is infectious and 
that's the way to win.  Joyful protest, joyful resistance, that's 
what it is.  
((NATS))

   
TEASE  ((VO/NAT)) 
Coming up….. 
((Banner)) 
Dance in Virtual Space 
((Diane Coburn Burning, Chamber Dance Project))   
I must say the dancers have been energized and excited by 
working in this new medium of little squares. 


BREAK TWO									 
BUMP IN  ((ANIM))				  
 

BLOCK C  
 
 
((PKG))  COVID / VIRTUAL DANCE  
((Banner:  The Laptop as Stage))  
((Reporter/Producer:  Faiza Elmasry)) 
((Camera:  Diane Coburn Burning))  
((Editor:  Lisa Vohra)) 
((Map:  Washington DC))    
((Main characters:  1 female))  
((NATS))  
((Courtesy:  Chamber Dance Project))  
((Diane Coburn Burning, Chamber Dance Project))  
And I will keep admitting everybody as we go as well, being 
mute enough.  So, I’ll face you, we start and.....ribs, elbow, 
ta ra ta ta, knee knee.    
((Diane Coburn Burning, Chamber Dance Project))  
I’m Diane Coburn Burning, Founder and Artistic Director of 
Chamber Dance Project.   
((NATS:  Diane Coburn Burning))  
Cha-cha-chu.  
((Diane Coburn Burning, Chamber Dance Project))   
Chamber Dance Project is a contemporary ballet company 
based in Washington DC and we work entirely with live 
music.  We’re usually on the stage but of late, we’re also 
online virtually a lot.  
((NATS:  Diane Coburn Burning))  
I’d just like to thank all the dancers for being willing to do 
this.  Alright, Troy, whenever they’re ready.   
((NATS))  
((Diane Coburn Burning, Chamber Dance Project))  
I think it was Winston Churchill that said, “Don’t waste a 
good crisis.”  And we’ve been going forward boldly and 
positively.  We have something that is our mantra, ‘there will 
be a beyond.’  But in the meantime, let’s see what we can do 
now.  Let’s not put off.  And so, we’ve embraced this.  And I 
think to our credit, people have embraced us doing this and 
that makes all the difference.  
((MUSIC/NATS:  Dancing))  
((Diane Coburn Burning, Chamber Dance Project))   
I must say the dancers have been energized and excited by 
working in this new medium   
((Courtesy:  Chamber Dance Project))  
((Diane Coburn Burning, Chamber Dance Project))   
of little squares, on a screen.  And, if I sound a bit surprised, 
I am.  And as one dancer said, “Diane, I’m not so sure, two 
months ago or three months ago, we would have been all so 
also open for it.”  But I think it’s the chance to create, to 
move, even though in their household spaces.   
((Courtesy:  Chamber Dance Project))  
((Diane Coburn Burning, Chamber Dance Project))   
And also be together.  If that sounds strange, I’m sure it is to 
them, until you long for it.  
((MUSIC/NATS))  
((Courtesy:  Chamber Dance Project))  
((Diane Coburn Burning, Chamber Dance Project))   
I started Chamber Dance Project upon the conviction that 
dance should be a collaboration between dancers and 
musicians, playing live on stage and performing together. 
Also, that working in smaller spaces, smaller theaters, would 
heighten the experience for the audience.  And that sharing 
the process along the way would also deepen that 
experience and understanding before the audience sees the 
final ballet.  
((NATS:  Diane Coburn Burning -- voice only while 
Christian is listening)) 
Try to keep your palms in the same position and switch the 
legs.  Stay as low as you can to wiggle the arms, hands 
down and slide the legs.   
((MUSIC/NATS))  
((Diane Coburn Burning, Chamber Dance Project))   
Bill asked, ‘how do you allow your bodies to feel, learn, 
memorize this range of motion?’  Anyone want to take that 
one?  
((Christian Denice, Dancer from California))  
We can still see it and we can understand it and feel it.  And 
I think that’s something that’s so beautiful about this time 
where it feels like we’re all kind of dealing with different 
amounts of loss and levels of either losing jobs or 
opportunities.  But, you know, dance is always going to be 
rooted in us.  
((MUSIC/NATS))  
((Diane Coburn Burning, Chamber Dance Project))  
So, we’re settling for the screen and now we’re trying to, you 
know, blow up that screen with energy and excitement.  It’s a 
way for us to create and connect which is what we’re known 
for.  So, I think the virtual aspect will be part of something we 
do going forward.  Do we want to be back on stage?  You 
bet.  And we will be.  
((MUSIC/NATS:  Christian Dancing))  
 
CLOSING  ((ANIM)) 
voanews.com/connect		 
 
BREAK THREE								 
BUMP IN  ((ANIM))		 
 
SHOW ENDS